Ontario’s Nuclear Revival: Minister Todd Smith

00:00:01:23 - 00:00:13:18

Chris Keefer

Welcome back to Decouple. Today I'm joined by a very special guest, Minister Todd Smith from the Government of Ontario. Minister Smith, thank you for taking the time to come on the podcast.

00:00:13:20 - 00:00:18:02

Hon. Todd Smith

Chris, great to see you and glad to finally make this happen on the podcast.

00:00:18:04 - 00:00:38:15

Chris Keefer

Absolutely. When I was in Dubai, there was this net zero nuclear summit we were both attending and I saw the young William Shackle, this 16 year old force of nature nuclear advocate get out of Australia, interviewing in the corner of the media room. And I got a little jealous that, my God, he got you first. But all respect to that young man, he's a he's a hard working fella.

00:00:38:17 - 00:00:53:06

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, he's doing great work carrying the message down in Australia. Of course, they don't have any nuclear on their grid down there, but who knows? He keeps doing the work he's doing. They may be adding some nuclear to the Australian grid in the near future.

00:00:53:08 - 00:01:14:06

Chris Keefer

I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised. So listen, I've got lots I've been dying to talk to you about. Ontario is becoming a place of absolute international interest in this audience has a very international audience. I think it's probably fair to say you're the minister in this government with the most air. Miles. As I said, I saw you in Dubai.

00:01:14:08 - 00:01:26:11

Chris Keefer

I know that you've been flying frequently to Eastern Europe out in Alberta recently. Why is Ontario suddenly on the map like this? And why is our minister of energy making such tracks around the world?

00:01:26:13 - 00:02:02:23

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, I think maybe the only member of Cabinet who has more air, Miles, is Vic Fedeli, our economic development minister. He's been traveling around to trying to locate all these EV and EV battery platforms and other new investments into our province, and he's been very successful in doing that. But I think it's really important for Ontario to tell its story about not just the current story in the current climate that we're in, but also the history of nuclear in Ontario and how important the role it's played in helping us do what so many other jurisdictions around the world are wanting to do.

00:02:03:01 - 00:02:27:13

Hon. Todd Smith

And that's two things. One is have energy autonomy and energy security. And then the other piece is cleaning up the air in their jurisdiction. So we were able to close down our last coal plant in 2014, 2015 period. And really the only reason we were able to do that was because we continued to have a robust supply of nuclear power.

00:02:27:13 - 00:02:56:21

Hon. Todd Smith

And we had made the decision to continue to add to that. And so so, you know, I think it's a great story to tell around the world. We have a 50 year history of providing safe, reliable, affordable, clean nuclear electricity in our jurisdiction. And we should never be ashamed of that. We're a tier one nuclear nation. And because of the strong history that we've had, we've been able to embark on this next generation of new nuclear technology.

00:02:56:21 - 00:03:14:13

Hon. Todd Smith

The the small modular reactor, which really isn't all that new. But but it is a new way of providing electricity onto the grid. And and Ontario is in the pole position. We have the first summer to go on the grid plan for 2028, 29, right here in Ontario.

00:03:14:15 - 00:03:33:22

Chris Keefer

Absolutely. And I mean, we've got this red hot supply chain from the refurb and this project management skills, which are actually delivering projects ahead of schedule. Even with the COVID pandemic, which which I think is pretty extraordinary. You know, I hear about a lot of people that are coming to visit the Australians, the Eastern Europeans. Tell me a little bit more about your interactions with them.

00:03:33:22 - 00:03:42:03

Chris Keefer

What are they saying? Why are they so interested and why is Ontario so pivotal? Pivotal when it comes to some of the challenges that they're facing?

00:03:42:05 - 00:04:11:22

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, you know what I mean? I had no idea when I took on this role as Ontario's energy Minister that I was going to be leading delegations of folks from around the world on tours of the Darlington nuclear site or even doing the traveling that I've been doing and sharing the nuclear story around the world. But things really changed in Europe a couple of years ago, right around this time, actually, when Russia invaded Ukraine.

00:04:12:00 - 00:04:39:06

Hon. Todd Smith

You know, there were there were fears and I had talked to folks from different jurisdictions, mostly in Eastern Europe prior to that, about energy security and energy autonomy and how important that was to not be as reliant on Russian natural gas, let's say, as maybe they were, or certainly in Poland, which, you know, has a lot of emissions coming from its coal facilities about how important it was to eliminate coal in that jurisdiction.

00:04:39:06 - 00:05:12:12

Hon. Todd Smith

But also the energy security piece very, very important to Poland as well on the well on the outskirts of Russia. And and certainly in the shadow of that Russian aggression in Ukraine, ironically, getting 20% of their electricity from nuclear plants in Ukraine, in the country of Poland. It's been it's been really interesting for me as an energy minister in a subnational jurisdiction here in a province in Ontario to be hosting these types of delegations.

00:05:12:12 - 00:05:49:04

Hon. Todd Smith

And they've come from really all around the world. We've had different politicians and guests coming from Australia. We certainly had the folks from Eastern Europe and across Europe coming to visit us and and delegations from the United States coming as well. I think everybody is really interested in the small modular reactor piece. They see it as a way to deploy a really flexible generation asset that's clean and and and, you know, possibly, you know, eliminating their need for coal plants.

00:05:49:06 - 00:06:15:03

Hon. Todd Smith

You know, we've had governors from from right across the United States in visiting us and and talking about what we're doing here in the Western world. That small modular reactor is going to be the first in the G7 to be deployed. So there's a lot of interest just because we are going to have the first one up and running on grid in the western world, in the G7, in, as I say, late 2028, early 29.

00:06:15:05 - 00:06:42:12

Hon. Todd Smith

So any time you go first, it gets a lot of attention. And, you know, we're really proud of the team that's working on that project because quite honestly, it's the same team that has worked on the project management for building the Can DOS 40 and 50 years ago. And then also planning the refurbishments that have been on time or even ahead of schedule and on budget, which is really important for a policymaker.

00:06:42:12 - 00:07:00:09

Hon. Todd Smith

It doesn't matter what part of the world you're in, you know, those are the kinds of things that get the attention of policymakers. When you can say you've got billion dollar infrastructure projects that are coming in six months ahead of schedule and on budget, that's going to get the attention of folks from around the world.

00:07:00:11 - 00:07:15:15

Chris Keefer

When talking about the frequent flying and the air miles. You know, occasionally I get I get asked about that as someone who cares about the climate and I talk about this little offset I have, which which has been, you know, my contribution to fighting for their service and to Pickering. I think you get to share in some of those carbon offsets.

00:07:15:15 - 00:07:37:02

Chris Keefer

Now, Minister, the decision has been made to move ahead with the refurbishment of the B side reactors at Pickering. That was just a couple of weeks ago, January 30th. Talk to us a little bit about that decision and how it came about. I mean, two years ago it was still, I think, quite a long shot. What what were the facts on the ground that that changed your to to convince your government to move this way?

00:07:37:04 - 00:08:02:20

Hon. Todd Smith

Well, we've known for a while now that we were going to need new generation. We had asked the independent electricity system operator, our system operator in Ontario, to do a study for us a couple of years ago. Now on decarbonizing Our grid. It was the Pathways to Decarbonization report looking at how we could hit net zero in our electricity grid by 2050.

00:08:02:22 - 00:08:29:08

Hon. Todd Smith

At the same time, you know, since we took government and that's been almost six years now, things have really changed in the province. You know, we're seeing new investments in manufacturing jobs coming back to Ontario, where previously they were leaving for other jurisdictions. And I'm sure over the next little while that we're together here, we'll get a chance to talk about some of the mistakes that were made by the previous Liberal government around the Green Energy Act.

00:08:29:08 - 00:08:59:01

Hon. Todd Smith

But, you know, when we started to get those foundations right in the electricity sector and it is some heavy lifting, unfortunately that has to be done by taxpayers in the province. Now, instead of electricity customers, the ratepayers in the province, we have been able to see the type of growth that wasn't happening previously. So new electric vehicle mandates that all of our OEMs are our auto plants.

00:08:59:03 - 00:09:31:08

Hon. Todd Smith

Transport transforming and adding electric vehicle platforms are major investments here. We've got three big EV battery plants that are locating in Windsor in Saint Thomas, just outside London, Ontario, and then another one in eastern Ontario. And just to put the size of those plants into perspective, the one that's being built, the Volkswagen plant in Saint Thomas is 1.6 kilometers long by one kilometer wide.

00:09:31:10 - 00:10:05:08

Hon. Todd Smith

So, I mean, it's a massive, massive facility. It's going to be one of the largest buildings in the world when it's up and running in a few years. And it's going to use a lot of electricity. We've seen manufacturing move to electrification, places like our steel plants in Hamilton. And to say, Marie, want to build green steel for the auto sector here in Ontario, and they're switching from coal fired plants to electric arc furnaces to make their steel, which will be green steel and massive, massive electricity users.

00:10:05:10 - 00:10:48:14

Hon. Todd Smith

So those three battery plants and the two steelmaking facilities is going to electric arc furnaces. Just those five projects alone are going to increase our industrial electricity demand by almost 25%. So so to answer your question, we need clean generation and we need a lot more generation. So when we did the analysis on the Pickering refurbishment, you know, we can get 2000 maybe 2200 megawatts from an existing energy site, which quite honestly, in spite of its age, is operating more efficiently than it ever has the last couple of years.

00:10:48:16 - 00:11:12:20

Hon. Todd Smith

And it just makes a lot of sense to move forward with that plan, particularly when you look at the alternatives. So so, you know, we've got a fully functioning energy site there that employs a lot of people, is in a willing host community in Pickering, which is which is key these days, too, because we're not locating plants in communities that aren't willing host communities.

00:11:12:20 - 00:11:43:21

Hon. Todd Smith

And it was great to have the mayor of Pickering, Kevin Ash, and a number of members of council and and those who are supportive in the economic development part of the jurisdiction come out as well and throw their support behind it. And then, you know, because of all the jobs that are there as well, it just it just makes sense from a power production, clean energy generator and and really an economic opportunity for the province to refurbish that site.

00:11:43:23 - 00:12:11:18

Chris Keefer

Well, you've got a lot of questions at the announcement about whether this was the wisest choice. Why not pursue lower cost wind and solar? And you did bring up the Green Energy Act, and I'm interested to hear it from you what what your perspectives have been managing this ministry. And, you know, in the aftermath of of this act, which has engendered some pretty significant costs, you know, it must take some will to decide to spend a lot more money on electricity generation when we're coming out of the hole there.

00:12:11:18 - 00:12:16:11

Chris Keefer

In terms of the commitments that have been made so far on on the renewable energy contracts.

00:12:16:15 - 00:12:50:14

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah. So, I mean, the Green Energy Act, which was brought forward by the previous government that was incentivizing, you know, wind and solar projects across the province with feed in tariffs, contracts that were way over market price for generating electricity, and also giving those assets that are intermittent sources of electricity generation a priority. Access to the grid was really causing chaos on our electricity grid because of the intermittency of those those generators.

00:12:50:14 - 00:13:19:16

Hon. Todd Smith

So when when the Green Energy Act started here in Ontario, and I think those who are from Ontario will remember it very well, because your electricity bills soared by three times what they previously were. But for those from outside the area, what it meant was a very unstable, unpredictable electricity grid. And we were dumping power that we didn't need because of the intermittency of the wind and solar that took priority access to the grid.

00:13:19:17 - 00:13:46:06

Hon. Todd Smith

So in this case, you know, we're producing 20 to 25% of our electricity in Ontario from hydro electric green facilities run of river and places like Niagara Falls. And and then about 55 to 60% of our electricity was coming from our low cost nuclear fleet. So in the case of hydro, we were getting electricity for about $0.04 a kilowatt hour back in the early days of the Green Energy Act.

00:13:46:06 - 00:14:14:08

Hon. Todd Smith

And we were getting our nuclear for seven or $0.08 a kilowatt hour, but we were paying $0.80 for solar per kilowatt hour and 20 to 25% for for wind power, which was forcing us to either trade that excess power off at a loss to neighboring jurisdictions or just simply venting the steam from our nuclear facilities or letting the water run over Niagara Falls or whatever turbine it might be without capturing the electricity.

00:14:14:08 - 00:14:46:16

Hon. Todd Smith

So it created a lot of instability in our province. We've chosen to move the cost of those over market priced contracts to the to the tax base, not no longer on the electricity bill, which is created a little more stability, but it's also created something that the province has to deal with to the tune of about $6 billion a year in paying for these over market prices on our on our tax bill in the province.

00:14:46:16 - 00:15:11:19

Hon. Todd Smith

So it was an ideological decision that was not based on sound science or or looking at economic development. And as a matter of fact, it drove I like to say it drove 300,000 jobs out of our province. Since we've moved it to the to the tax base, we've now seen almost 800,000 new jobs in our province in the last five plus years.

00:15:11:21 - 00:15:32:19

Chris Keefer

I was running some numbers past an economist friend of mine just trying to get a sense of how much the renewables cost shift is is costing Ontarians. Every year. It's 3.1 billion a year. I understand the province spends 3.3 billion a year in hospitals, 3 billion a year on schools, 3 billion a year on on highways. So this is this is not an insignificant line item in the budget.

00:15:32:21 - 00:15:56:10

Hon. Todd Smith

Because we're spending a ton not on health care, but it is a significant hit, certainly. But I think it's the right thing to do because, you know, as a result, we're creating a lot of jobs, which means all of those individuals that are now working today that weren't working six years ago are paying income tax and and increasing revenues to the province in that way.

00:15:56:12 - 00:16:27:01

Hon. Todd Smith

So so it it makes sense. We we haven't raised the tax we haven't raised a fee since we formed the government, but revenues to the province have gone up by almost $70 billion since we took government six years ago. And it's because of the new investments that we're seeing in the province and the number of people that are working, which then allows you to spend more on health care and education and social services and all those other areas that are really important to to see investments in.

00:16:27:03 - 00:16:45:23

Chris Keefer

Right. I mean, that same economist got a couple of data. He wrote an interesting article for for TVO, and I think it's reflective of the way in which the political spectrum is just kind of topsy turvy and it's hard to sort of make out what's left and what's right. The Green Energy Act, that massive expenditure was a privatization of our electricity system services.

00:16:45:23 - 00:17:09:08

Chris Keefer

And he was noticing that, you know, this Conservative government has actually made absolutely historic investments in publicly owned electricity infrastructure. So that's that's kind of one thing that's sort of caught my eye, as well as the way that the province is collaborating so well with, you know, the Liberal government federally. I think that's kind of interesting, this sort of new, more pragmatic politics maybe that we're finding ourselves in.

00:17:09:10 - 00:17:44:11

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, I think, you know, we all have to work together. We may be from different political stripes. We're a progressive conservative government in Ontario. The federal government is a Liberal government and, you know, while I would say our party has been very supportive of nuclear over the history really of the party, or at least as long, far back as I can remember, that hasn't necessarily been the case with sort of the left leaning parties in Ontario or in Canada, and that includes our federal government.

00:17:44:11 - 00:18:12:14

Hon. Todd Smith

But I think over the last two or three years, that's because of the work done by a lot of different organizations, including yours, Chris, and many others. There's a realization that when you set these net zero targets and, you know, climate change targets, that you can't do it with just wind and solar and renewables alone, it's impossible to do that.

00:18:12:14 - 00:18:50:16

Hon. Todd Smith

And if you were to do that, it would come at enormous cost, you know? Nuclear sounds expensive sometimes, but but when you compare what it would mean to replace nuclear with wind or solar or battery storage, it's actually far, far more expensive and it's going to use a lot more land. And I think I think the government of Canada, to their credit and you know, we've got a great relationship with Minister Wilkinson, who's my counterpart at the Ministry of Energy and Natural Resources Canada.

00:18:50:18 - 00:19:27:13

Hon. Todd Smith

You know, we've been able to encourage them to make investments into our nuclear facilities and our nuclear programs in Ontario and right across the country. So they've been very supportive of our small modular reactor project, for instance, that we're rolling out at the Darlington site with almost $1,000,000,000 in support from the Canada Infrastructure Bank. They've recently introduced investment tax credits pardon me, to support the refurbishment projects and and potentially new nuclear large nuclear projects that we're building out at at Bruce Power.

00:19:27:13 - 00:19:59:05

Hon. Todd Smith

They've included dollars $50 million in their federal budget to beef up the CMC, our Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, for the hiring of employees there to ensure that we have a framework for siting some hours down the road in an expeditious and also a way that the communities can trust when it comes to safety and and environmental assessments that need to be done in community consultation.

00:19:59:05 - 00:20:14:22

Hon. Todd Smith

So, you know, the Federal Government has come around, they've warmed to the idea of nuclear because it's really the only way that they're ever going to hit the targets that they've set when it comes to decarbonizing our grid and and our country.

00:20:15:00 - 00:20:35:12

Chris Keefer

You know, in our organization, we always see the best climate solutions belong in every party. And it is interesting, this kind of potential for a pan partizan approach to nuclear. You know, parties like the Green Party are very concerned about the climate. You know, party leader Mike Schreiner saying, you know, we accept that Ontario will continue to source its electricity from power stations like Bruce and Darling for decades to come.

00:20:35:12 - 00:20:57:06

Chris Keefer

And, you know, Pickering's just been added to that. So there is almost some tacit support from the Greens, the Liberal Party. I mean, they life extended Pickering in 2018 for quite a number of years. So, you know, you're continuing that legacy and the NDP, you know, the traditional party of organized labor, has a sector here which has the highest unionization rate really in the entire country.

00:20:57:07 - 00:21:06:16

Chris Keefer

So are you seeing this kind of opportunities opening up or how politically is the refurbishment announcement being responded to by by your colleagues across the aisle?

00:21:06:18 - 00:21:39:19

Hon. Todd Smith

It's it's interesting. I think there's a hesitancy from a couple of the parties to full throated leaf support. What we're doing. But I think there is a realization that it is it is necessary. It'll be interesting to see when the House comes back. I believe we are going to be introducing some legislation, you know, that sort of supports what we're doing on the nuclear side of things.

00:21:39:21 - 00:22:14:06

Hon. Todd Smith

You know, I think most of those building trades and power workers and private sector unions that typically supported the NDP over the last number of years have come to support Premier Ford and and our party at election time because of all of the infrastructure projects, because of all of the building and growth that's happening in the province. And that means good paying jobs for those building trades and folks that work in the sector, from boilermakers to electrician patricians to welders, you name it.

00:22:14:08 - 00:22:35:07

Hon. Todd Smith

And certainly power workers are in there as well. So we have been have been getting a lot of support from those who maybe traditionally voted orange here in Ontario that are now supporting Blue just because of all the work that we're doing in the jobs that we are creating for them. So it's it's a bit of a challenge.

00:22:35:07 - 00:22:45:14

Hon. Todd Smith

I think the duty of the opposition is to oppose. But when you're doing the right thing like we are in this sector, it makes it difficult for them to oppose sometimes.

00:22:45:16 - 00:23:11:14

Chris Keefer

So getting back to the refurbishment of Pickering, you know, I get very excited about it compared to five years ago. I mean, it's almost unrecognizable, not just the political landscape, but the popular perceptions of nuclear and the policy that's accompanying that. But when I feel elated, I look at the numbers and I go, you know, we're just treading water here with the refurbishment of the B side of Pickering, we're losing to a side, so we're losing 1200 megawatts.

00:23:11:14 - 00:23:27:17

Chris Keefer

We'll make up for that with the four summers at Darlington. But then by the mid 2030s, we're just breaking even. And as you mentioned, there's a lot of excitement about industrial growth, population growth and increasing demand. What are we going to do to to to meet that? What's next?

00:23:27:19 - 00:23:55:16

Hon. Todd Smith

What's next? Yeah, you know, obviously the nearly five gigawatts that at Bruce Power, the Bruce C the the clock is ticking on that now expressions of interest have been submitted from different technologies to the folks at Bruce and they're going through the process of analyze seeing the technologies and and seeing what comes next. You know the four assemblers at Darlington are going to be important.

00:23:55:18 - 00:24:26:03

Hon. Todd Smith

The refurbishment at Pickering and the refurbishments that are ongoing at at Bruce and at Darlington are important as well. You know, one of the challenges that I did face when I became the energy minister was we didn't have a lot of energy sites certified and ready to go. So I think it's it's incumbent on me to make sure that whomever my replacement is down the road isn't left with only the sites that we currently have.

00:24:26:03 - 00:24:54:19

Hon. Todd Smith

So, you know, we need to look at potential new sites, not just for for potential large nuclear, but also small modular reactors. This is one of the things that came out of that Pathways to Decarbonization report from the independent electricity system operator was that we were potentially going to need 18 gigawatts of new nuclear in the province, you know, with the mirrors and the new large build that's going to be coming out.

00:24:54:19 - 00:25:21:12

Hon. Todd Smith

Bruce We probably are somewhere near the six gig. Mark So we signed that agreement with the World Nuclear Association over at COP 28 in Dubai last year as a subnational jurisdiction in Ontario to triple our nuclear output, much the same as Canada has, has signed on to triple its nuclear output. Keeping in mind most of that nuclear output is here in this country, in Ontario.

00:25:21:12 - 00:25:44:06

Hon. Todd Smith

But, you know, will, we'll be exploring different potential energy sites and potentially new nuclear sites across the province as well. So, you know, I have to I have to leave my successor some options when it comes to siting new nuclear. Not that I plan to leave anytime soon. Doc, I, I hope I'm here for a while because I'm really enjoying this role.

00:25:44:08 - 00:25:56:04

Hon. Todd Smith

It's really important work for the future success of our province to ensure that we have the electricity that we need and that it's clean, reliable baseload power from nuclear mean.

00:25:56:09 - 00:26:19:11

Chris Keefer

Given how important the sites are and sometimes how difficult they are to access the decision to use only a quarter of the licensed capacity at Darlington seemed interesting. And you know, the Bruce site is amazing. It's got incredible social license. What Bruce Power has done up there in terms of supporting a vibrant local economy has been incredible. But, you know, it is far from from our load centers.

00:26:19:13 - 00:26:44:02

Chris Keefer

You know, it did seem like the Somare paradigm was quite prominent and came into fruition when we didn't actually forecast a lot of demand growth coming. And now, obviously, large nuclear is back on the agenda for that very reason. It seems like Ontario is doing an enormous service to our allies in Eastern Europe and to our friends out in western Canada who just need a smaller sized reactor given the constraints of their grids.

00:26:44:04 - 00:26:53:04

Chris Keefer

What are your thoughts there in terms of, you know, the use of that capacity at Darlington, in terms of just trying to squeeze out the most megawatts, given the power crunches that we're facing?

00:26:53:06 - 00:27:30:07

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, I don't have any second thoughts about the smaller piece. I think that's going to be a real opportunity for Ontario to be a global leader in Canada, to be a global leader in a smaller deployment. But at the same time, it's imperative that we do have future sites for potentially large nuclear reactors in our province. And while that's going on, looking for opportunities for some others as well, you know, I'm excited about what the SMR means for the folks who work in our supply chain in Ontario.

00:27:30:07 - 00:28:19:00

Hon. Todd Smith

One of the best supply chains in the world, over 220 businesses, mostly here in Ontario, that are going to be building the components for the SMR that we're building the technology at Darlington, but also the components that will be required in the refurbishment process at Pickering and other places. It's going to be great news for that. And then, you know, I think the more that we do and the consistent signal that we send to our our our confidence in our nuclear sector, that's only going to benefit our GDP because it's those companies that are going to continue to scale up to build the components that are necessary.

00:28:19:00 - 00:28:44:09

Hon. Todd Smith

So I think, you know, the next important thing is to make sure that we're looking at developing new energy sites to fill the need. You're right. We could have we could have used that site at Darlington for more large scale nuclear. I think this is going to be a gradual growth that occurs in our electricity demand and that's coming from the electricity system.

00:28:44:09 - 00:29:10:09

Hon. Todd Smith

Operator So we do have time, but we've got to get moving. We can't delay too much longer and making sure that we're identifying these sites, getting CSC approval. And therefore it's imperative to and we're working with the federal government on this. Doc, is making sure that the federal government isn't bringing in a new process that's going to create further delays and burden in getting new sites certified.

00:29:10:09 - 00:29:43:15

Hon. Todd Smith

And I speak of the impact assessment agency. So we've had great conversations with Minister Wilkinson and our Federal Minister of the Environment, Stephen Guilbeault as well about how imperative it is that these new nuclear projects and potential new nuclear sites not be delayed with an added layer of bureaucracy from the impact assessment agency for new nuclear? We're very fortunate we have one of the best regulators in the world, if not the best in the CMC who know what they're doing and they've done a great job over the years of getting these sites certified.

00:29:43:17 - 00:30:04:19

Chris Keefer

In terms of our nuclear sector, as it is, you know, Canada enjoys something very special, I think in terms of this extreme supply chain localization. We have numbers from the Ontario Chamber of Commerce saying, you know, essentially those reserves are accessing a supply chain that's 96% here in province. We get enormous economic benefit from it. It's hard for competing technologies to to match that.

00:30:04:19 - 00:30:31:08

Chris Keefer

And I've certainly heard from some labor friends of mine concerns that, you know, Canadians will no longer be doing the outages and refueling necessarily of the the American style technologies that are coming in in the summer market. And that's that's a real concern for them. Is the government a part of negotiating supply chain localization mandates? How is your government looking at trying to match the incredible degree to which the nuclear sector harvests its own benefits here in Canada with their localized supply chain and services?

00:30:31:10 - 00:31:02:18

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, well, it's OPG Ontario Power Generation that's responsible for negotiating these types of local agreements, and I think they've done a good job on SMR and making sure that 80 to 85% of the components for the summer are going to be built here in in our supply chain. You know, I'm hearing anecdotally from companies that are part of the supply chain in Ontario just how they're getting ready to expand for the increased demand that they know is coming.

00:31:02:18 - 00:31:35:09

Hon. Todd Smith

And every time you, you know, you make a commitment to build, not not one, but build for us Mars at Darlington and then potentially build not one, but probably more than that down in the Tennessee Valley Authority jurisdiction in the southern U.S. And then you hear from Saskatchewan, you hear from Alberta, you hear from Poland, you hear from Estonia about all of the plans that they're making to deploy this in their country or their part of the world.

00:31:35:11 - 00:32:00:10

Hon. Todd Smith

It's increasing that confidence for the suppliers to to scale up and prepare for this. So I think, you know, it was a good news story, certainly, too, to move forward on the SMR. DARLINGTON And at the same time that's happening, I don't think anybody six years ago would have anticipated that. You know, we were in the place where we would need large nuclear in Ontario.

00:32:00:10 - 00:32:21:10

Hon. Todd Smith

And and maybe, you know, talking about the Bruce C plant that is going to be built over the next number of years out at that site, which is already the world's largest operating nuclear facility on Lake Huron. But but we're here and and and we're going to be moving over the next little while to prepare for the continued growth that we have.

00:32:21:10 - 00:32:52:13

Hon. Todd Smith

And and that means that that means more orders for the BW x ts of the world that are creating the big components. And many, many of the others that are part of our nuclear supply chain. So things are really happening. I think when you've got a sector that's got the proven track record that it has over the last number of years, in particular on delivering on time and on budget, it it gives us policymakers a lot of confidence to move forward.

00:32:52:13 - 00:32:58:17

Hon. Todd Smith

And and I think it's a great signal to send to the world that Ontario, Canada is a great place to do business.

00:32:58:19 - 00:33:26:04

Chris Keefer

It only makes sense, I think, that, you know, OPG is starting to look at assisting other provinces. We've heard with potential agreements with New Brunswick, you know, only having one candu reactor there to run. We've got the experience of running 18 makes sense that we can share our expertise. And similarly, these agreements out with Saskpower and with capital power in Alberta suggest that there's a role now for Ontario power generation and Ontario's nuclear sector to be thinking much more centrally, if not internationally.

00:33:26:06 - 00:33:39:19

Chris Keefer

With that in mind, are you seeing sort of federal cooperation or federal funding or dollars coming in with that intent, with that recognition that what OPG is doing now goes beyond the the sorry, the borders of Ontario?

00:33:39:21 - 00:34:05:15

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, I think so. You know, certainly we've seen it with the SEB investments at the SMR site. You know, the EITC is the investment tax credits. This would be the first time that the Crown Corp's would be eligible for investment tax credits. So I think that's important and that comes from the Federal government and our lobbying for that.

00:34:05:15 - 00:34:34:22

Hon. Todd Smith

And and it's not just OPG that would benefit from that. It would be NB power in New Brunswick and and Saskpower as well as a Crown agency. There. Alberta's market is a different one. But capital power, no doubt a private entity that operates in numerous jurisdictions in Alberta is where their home is. But but also here in Ontario and a number of different energy generation facilities would be it would be really, really welcome to get those itzy's.

00:34:34:22 - 00:35:10:20

Hon. Todd Smith

So, yeah, I mean, OPG has really taken a leadership role and I've been pleased to be out there supporting OPG and, and Lorentz energy, which is their international arm in just growing their business and, and being there to support particularly our provincial neighbors. Incidentally, Chris, I don't know if you know this, but when I was 11 or 12 years old as a Boy Scout growing up in Moncton, New Brunswick, I went on a field trip to Point Lowepro, which is the Candu reactor on the Bay of Fundy, and just before it opened.

00:35:10:20 - 00:35:35:21

Hon. Todd Smith

And so as an 11 year old boy in New Brunswick, I was in my first nuclear facility. Never in my wildest imaginations 40 years later did I anticipate I would be overseeing one of the largest nuclear build outs in the world here in the in Ontario, at places like Bruce and Darlington and Pickering. But it's funny how how life's path leads you in a certain direction.

00:35:35:21 - 00:36:13:12

Hon. Todd Smith

But but but to answer your question, OPG has has really taken on a leadership role. And, you know, you saw this as well at places like COP 28 and the World Nuclear Expo in Paris back in November. OPG Is there. They're present there telling their story about how Canada is a Tier one nuclear operator and someone that can be trusted to help them meet their energy security and and energy autonomy and and the different needs that they have to assist in, you know, building out their facilities like a turn of ODA in Romania, for instance, in the Candu reactors there.

00:36:13:12 - 00:36:19:12

Hon. Todd Smith

So, you know, it's an exciting time for the sector and OPG is right there in the mix.

00:36:19:14 - 00:36:42:04

Chris Keefer

I can't help seeing everything through the lens of health care. And I do see a lot of similarities between the new coal industry and the health care sector in that it is a profoundly human story, one of the best of the best, you know, rising to the occasion, getting the education and training they need to do something truly extraordinary in terms of providing a service.

00:36:42:06 - 00:37:05:00

Chris Keefer

I've been really inspired by meeting people within the sectors that are at Sheridan Park about a month ago, touring some of the Candu Refurb work that's that's going on there. And I came across a technologist is working with some co-op students. They were working on this. It's kind of like a sandblasting machine to clean out the the steam generators of some of the existing fleet and just chatting with that guy and seeing him.

00:37:05:00 - 00:37:27:12

Chris Keefer

And do you like your job and this guy just being passionate like, I love this work. I get to solve problems all day. I get to travel around the world and seeing these co-op students like seeing that the opportunities exist for them there. It's it's a very exciting time. I was wondering maybe just in closing, if you had of these kind of human human factors kind of stories that you'd like to share in terms of that that again, that personal human touch to to the sector?

00:37:27:15 - 00:38:09:13

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, absolutely. And I think, well, you've been doing a great job sort of carrying that message with a medical approach to it or a medical tangent. And just how important nuclear is, not just in cleaning the air that we breathe and the number of people that you're not seeing coming in to the emergency room dealing with, you know, issues around breathing, because we have been able to clean up the air over Toronto in the GTA and Ontario because of the investments that we've made you know, we talked about the young guy from Australia who's doing that same type of work as well and, you know, doing great work, Miss America, for goodness sakes.

00:38:09:15 - 00:38:30:18

Hon. Todd Smith

You know, we had the opportunity to meet with her. I know you did it at the conference in Dubai with COP 28. I did. And in Paris at the World Nuclear Expo. And I mean, you know, when you bring that kind of star power, if you want to call it that, to the voice supporting nuclear, it's it's really important to help get that that message out.

00:38:30:18 - 00:39:13:01

Hon. Todd Smith

But really, to your point about people who are working in the sector, you know, I hear more and more from young people that are working in the sector and those who are deciding on which path they want to take for their career, who really want to make the biggest impact that they can in fighting climate change and global warming and making their impact that way, coming to the realization that the best way that they can do, that is by working in the nuclear sector as a nuclear engineer or a nuclear operator, or working in the supply chain to build the components that are going to help provide that emissions free electricity and continue the decarbonization

00:39:13:01 - 00:39:54:07

Hon. Todd Smith

efforts where we've been very, very successful in Ontario with the grid. That's 90% clean most of the time and continuing to add to the clean generation. There are countries around the world like Poland, that's, you know, one of the dirtiest countries in the world, from carbon output from their coal plants. And there are there are young people who are realizing that these countries over on the other side of the pond can benefit from them going to school, whether it's in a unique university and then moving on to a career in the nuclear sector is is going to make a big difference to reducing emissions.

00:39:54:07 - 00:40:21:20

Hon. Todd Smith

But I think the great the great story, too, and we talked about it a bit, is just providing those countries an opportunity to sort of manage their own assets when it comes to electricity generation and not have to rely on a country like Russia or, you know, countries that aren't our friends and aren't our allies giving them the security that they're they're looking for in that country.

00:40:21:20 - 00:40:51:00

Hon. Todd Smith

So nuclear provides all of that. So if there's anybody listening that's considering a career path, a nuclear take it, we're going to need you. As countries around the world are looking to triple their output of nuclear power. And Canada is one of you know, we're going to need all hands on deck to make this happen. So I don't think twice get into the nuclear sector, get into the nuclear business because I think there's a bright future for you there and it's really going to make a difference.

00:40:51:02 - 00:41:12:16

Chris Keefer

I just feel this is kind of like, you know, we need you moment because there's so much happening in Ontario. I hear that all the time that there's the constraints we face again are the human ones almost more than anything else, just in terms of having the available staff to do all these refurbishments, get Pickering down, refurbish Pickering, do the Bruce builds, help out, and the Romanians and Nevada.

00:41:12:18 - 00:41:24:00

Chris Keefer

Are there any I guess, is the closing bonus question Are there any efforts being made by the government to attract foreign talent as well, to come and work within the sector to make all of these potential projects a reality?

00:41:24:02 - 00:42:01:16

Hon. Todd Smith

Yeah, absolutely. There's there's been a lot of investment from a number of different ministries to to train local nuclear workers and to train, you know, skilled trades workers, whether it's through the skills development fund or just supporting these programs in our universities and colleges and and the building trades, but also looking at immigration and how we can, you know, attract the brightest minds from around the world to join the brightest minds that we already have here in Ontario, Canada.

00:42:01:16 - 00:42:29:19

Hon. Todd Smith

So it's there's going to be lots of opportunities for people in this sector. And keep in mind, Chris, it's not just the not just the energy assets that we're building out. I mean, my goodness, you know, Ontario right now, we're building the largest subway system in Toronto, in Canada. We're building out highways, we're building out long term care facilities and hospitals and schools.

00:42:29:21 - 00:42:57:11

Hon. Todd Smith

You know, even things like Ontario Place are going to require skilled trades workers. And we're building one and a half million homes to accommodate the people that are moving into our province that we're anticipating to come here over the next little while. So there's a lot building going on. I think the good thing is, is that OPG and Bruce do have a good human resources plan to ensure that they have the skilled trades folks and and workers that they need to keep things on track.

00:42:57:12 - 00:43:20:09

Hon. Todd Smith

The contingency plan that they have when it comes to new build and refurbishment is, really world class. And I've got to give the leadership at both of those operations, OPG and Bruce, a great marks for planning and making sure that they've got a contingency plan that's going to work to keep the projects on time, on budget.

00:43:20:11 - 00:43:29:04

Chris Keefer

All right. I think that's a great place to live it. Minister, thank you for making the time for decouple. Even though we want a little over time, we are still on budget, sir.

00:43:29:06 - 00:43:29:20

Hon. Todd Smith

Thanks, doc.