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India's Nuclear Past and Future

Dr. Anil Kakodkar

Monday, April 4, 2022

Dr. Chris Keefer  0:00  

Welcome back to Decouple. Today I'm honored to be joined by Dr. Anita cocoate car, Indian nuclear physicist and mechanical engineer. He was the chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission of India and the director of the Bhabha Atomic Research Center from 1996 to the year 2000. He was awarded the Padma the Busan, India's second highest civilian honor on the 26th of January 2009. Dr. Cook, gar Welcome to Decouple it's a pleasure to have you. Thank you. So we've done a number of country profiles looking at the interaction between countries and their nuclear energy programs, namely, China, Japan, France, etc. Really excited and a bit delayed to the game coming to speak about India. And it's really incredible to be able to speak with someone who was involved and has been involved in the sector for so many years. Now. I understand you were you were born and in 1943. And I'm just very interested in understanding the whole sort of context of nuclear energy in India. But I was wondering if we could start first with your childhood with your parents with the context that you grew up in. Independence happened shortly after your birth, partition, etc. I understand your parents were Gandhian freedom fighters. And I'm wondering if you can tell us a bit about your childhood and how how your parents impacted your your choices in life.

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  1:19  

Well, I was born to Gandhian parents, they were deeply involved in the India's freedom struggle, which was led by Mahatma Gandhi. They were in fact staying in Gandhi's ashram. They say that as a small baby. I also spent some time in that ashram. But I don't remember any one of one of that, following India's liberation, my father came from Goa, which was under Portuguese rule at that time, he said that he should also work for gauzy liberation. So he went into a satyagraha in in Goa, he was arrested by Portuguese and then deported to Portugal for nine long years, in fact, into he was imprisoned there for quite a long time. And so, I was brought up by my mother, we had very tough challenges, but we had also very strong values inculcated out of Gandhian philosophy. So, that is what brought me up in spite of all odds. And those values remain with me even till today. Many people asked me whether my working in Atomic Energy Program and strongly believing Gandhian philosophies is that not a contradiction. I am quite convinced in my mind, and I have discussed this with several senior people. I see no contradiction. Many people believe that Gandhi was against technology. Gandhi was not against technology, but he was actually talking about creating or developing creative minds which are benign, and which do not allow use of technology which becomes exploitative. But he was against other people exploiting you, that also was equally true. And so he has always kind of in its own way championed technology use in an appropriate way that doesn't become exploited, that brings the strength that brings the self reliance. But that doesn't become exploitative. And an I think Indian Atomic Energy Program, and the philosophy behind it is exactly that. So I believe I'm in in complete equilibrium and peace between Gandhian philosophy and development of atomic energy program.

Dr. Chris Keefer  4:16  

Can you tell me what your your first memory was of becoming aware or interested in nuclear energy?

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  4:21  

Well, it was like after my education, I had to seek a job because as I told your family circumstances were quite difficult. But then I didn't want to get into a job where kind of you know, in those days, I graduated as a mechanical engineer and and the job market was very good. You could do the industry and companies would come to you looking for whether you would want to join them. It was that good. But I found those jobs were essentially repetitive jobs in India's development at that stage. These jobs were essentially marketing or industrial engineering, or very little design. And so most of these jobs were repetitive and I had no interest in getting into repetitive jobs. So my drive in going to Bhabha Atomic Research Center, it was called Atomic Energy establishment trauma in those days was to be able to do something new every day. And that is what brought me into r&d. And it so happened that r&d There was in atomic energy, and then I sort of went deep into Dr. Havas kind of writings and papers on how energy is important for India's development and how nuclear energy can play a central role. And that's what initiated me into nuclear r&d.

Dr. Chris Keefer  6:11  

It's Tell me a little bit more about this figure Homi Bhabha, and the vision that he had for India and for its energy independence.

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  6:18  

Well, he decided that, first of all, he decided that he wants to start to research and development in atomic energy, because he felt this is such an important subject. And it must be a part of India's development. When he went deeper in that, he figured out that India's nuclear resources at that time that profile was very modest quantities of uranium, we didn't have much uranium at that time, even now, it's not very much but now, we have much more compared to that time. But, but while there was uranium only modest quantities, the thorium was in plenty and India has perhaps one of the largest stock of thorium. And then the question was, how can India leverage its thorium potential to address energy question and that is where he he designed the three stage nuclear power program that is you begin with uranium because that's the only element which has a naturally occurring fissile isotope, and then recover the the fissile material from spent fuel and multiply that through fast breeder technologies and then use that multiplied source of fissile material to leverage vast quantities of thorium. And this intermediate stage of breeder reactor was important, because, if you want to, if you want to leverage thorium at a scale and India is a large country, and India would require leveraging thorium energy on a very large scale and if you want to do that, then you can't do that. With this small scale utilization of thorium, which will be possible only if you move directly from uranium phase two thorium phase and so he introduced this fast breeder in between. And then he showed, in fact, he did calculations and published papers. And he showed that with that you can leverage thorium to produce energy at a scale, which is good enough for future energy needs of India. And that is how this three stage program came into existence.

Dr. Chris Keefer  9:05  

And that's very much been the vision for some time. I understand that India's now diversify it and particularly since the 2000s started to import lightwater designs. We'll talk a little bit I guess, about the the pressurized heavy water designs, but I'm just curious if Are we moving away from that three stages path or is that still sort of at the heart of India's nuclear vision?

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  9:27  

No, no, no, we're not moving away. But what really happened was the program sort of continues to have emphasis on three stage program as a long term objective. At the same time, India looked at developments in atomic energy in a comprehensive way. And as I mentioned earlier, India sort of while it was addressing nor it was looking forward to use of atomic energy for addressing energy question there was there were issues about nuclear weapons at that time and the NPT had come into existence, which sort of bifurcated the world into those who can have and those who cannot have and philosophically, India did not like that discriminatory treaty. So, India was India has been all along quite favorable to a a total nuclear disarmament right from beginning and that policy continues even today, but, India is against this discriminatory you know, Division of world between haves and have nots. And because of that approach, while India had no no interest or ambition of developing nuclear weapons, but India had to face a lot of restrictions in technology development. And, and so, the the three stage program particularly development of the first stage reactors, and also to some extent development of Fast Breeder Reactor, it took a very long time doing it on our own and there are a lot of hurdles in doing so, and, but, in spite of all that, we successfully developed the the heavy water reactor, which runs on natural uranium and put it to commercial deployment and these reactors performed extremely well. But we found that we didn't have enough uranium to to feed those reactors to increase capacity. And we found that to the development of the fast breeder reactor, which we have now, a 500 megawatt prototype fast breeder reactor which is which is in the commissioning stage right now, but it was obviously quite some delayed at the same time, India's energy needs were becoming more and more acute. And so, it was in that context that there was it thinking that you know, India has carried out its entire development in a fully responsible way, adhering to all the rules of the game. And, and, so, a discussion started whether there should be international civil nuclear cooperation for India, which, which enabled two things one access to Uranium, so, that you can increase capacity in pH, Ws, and also access to light water technology, so, that we can use that to supplement the thermal reactor capacity while India's first beta development program goes on. So, it is as a part of that civil nuclear cooperation that, we we now pursue both the construction of heavy water reactors which is a domestic technology as well as construction of Light Water Reactors from based on foreign technology and foreign cooperation.

And, of course, the development of Fast Breeder Reactor continues. So, it is led us civil nuclear cooperation to rapidly ramp up nuclear capacity, because we need it immediately and this has become even more important, after the climate change threat has become very visible. And at the same time, in the long run, of course, we will require more energy and that will come from the three stage nuclear program leveraging our thorium resources. So, the program remains remains the same. But, yeah, we are pursuing both light water reactors as well as heavy water yet.

Dr. Chris Keefer  14:41  

I'm really fascinated by, you know, historic low and middle income countries that have made these strategic investments in high technology. And I'm, I'm wondering, you know, what your thoughts are now and what they were at the time when confronted with that question of, you know, how best to allocate scarce resources.

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  14:57  

Well, I think I'd like to deal with this question at some length basically, I have a different viewpoint and let me explain that you know, to visualize that we again divide the world in sort of high income countries and sort of meaning thereby that they are the only people who can develop technologies, because they have financial muscle and the low income or middle income countries, we should only be a kind of buyer of those technologies in use. Now, I have serious difficulty with that, that logic and the logic is defined by argument is the following. The for example, the you know, the, the cost of living in low income countries or middle income countries is obviously much lower compared to high income countries or industrially advanced countries. So, when it comes to doing high technology, building high technology, high technology has a lot of customization activity are a lot of you know, high level human resource that you have to mobilize and that's an important element in the large capital cost involved in deployment of high technology. Now, in a in a low income country or a middle income country, the that cost is much lower. So, if you develop you know, if you build your capacity of your people through good education training experience, and they do high technology, they can do so, at much lower cost, maybe half the cost, and this has been born in not only nuclear, it has been born in almost all high technology areas. So, for example, the Indian pH ws that we build, that we build at roughly half the capital, specific capital cost of a technology imported from industrially advanced countries, the per megawatt specific capital cost is very low. And this is not only the case in atomic energy, it has been the case in space, it has been the space in case in many other high technology countries. So, this is one part. The second part is technology must be deployed in tune with the needs of the country. Now, many times the products you get in international market, well you can say that they can always address those needs, but they are not the most optimum situations. For example, the the world talking, talking about nuclear, the, you know, we did a lot of study in the beginning of our atomic energy program as to what is the most optimum technology that we should be using for the first stage that is thermal reactor stage. And we came to conclusion at that time, I'm telling you this story in late 50s and early 60s. And we reached the conclusion that the right technology for us is heavy water reactors.

And mind you heavy water reactors research reactors were existing in many countries, but power reactor based on heavy water technology was in Canada, it was only in development stage, there was no commercial power plant in Canada. And so at that time, we did start with a project with the US General Electric and we said that we will build two boiling water reactors of General Electric design in India to get experience with running a larger nuclear power plant in the Indian grids which were quite weak at that time. And while we get that experience, we will get on with the indigenous development efforts. And we decided to collaborate with Canada. The our work on heavy water reactors started with collaboration, mind you it was a collaboration, not technology transfer in that sense. And so as Canadians were developing their reactors, we started developing our own our own reactors as well. And I think that philosophy has kind of stood us in Very good state. And we make these reactors at half the capital cost, as I said, and also there are many, many characteristics, which I can come to later, in more detail discussion. But so India could adopt heavy water technology, if we had adopted that buy the reactor from the industrially advanced countries or the higher income countries, we would have ended up in purchasing Light Water Reactors in much larger numbers, the way the rest of the world has done, but it would have meant spending much more money in terms of capital cost compared to what we are spending now. And also, I'm sure we will be able to develop this program in a in a much bigger way with much smaller outlay. So, so that's briefly, I think the important thing is you must develop capability of your people and follow the rules of the game, including international order. And you can do things much cheaper.

Dr. Chris Keefer  21:09  

It strikes me as a vital part of, you know, developing as a country becoming independent, that you need to master these these areas of high technology, or else you're reduced to a certain status in the world where maybe you're just contributing as a provider of natural resources and not not finished products. So I think that's an interesting answer. I'm curious, again, this podcast being hosted here from Canada, then the choice of the pressurized heavy water reactor for much of the Indian program. Can you tell me about why it was a good fit for your country?

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  21:39  

Well, let me put it this way. The I think, although we have not gone in export of heavy water reactors, in so far. But I think there is a lot of merit in India exporting its heavy water reactors. And Canadians of course, have exported significant quantities of numbers of heavy water reactors to different countries. There was a time old story, but informally, I'm telling you, prior to the civil nuclear cooperation, but informally, a group of four vice presidents all the four vice presidents from ACL Canada, they came to India met me and in fact proposed that why can't there be a collaboration between Canada and India in exporting heavy water technology and they actually told me that there is a lot of merit in doing so, because India has so much of experience in heavy water reactor, particularly the smaller heavy water reactor, which is actually a best fit for the needs of the emerging economy countries. And so, then ask that the India can do it on its own, why do I need Canada so, this is Canada has a brand and together we can do a better job. And of course, that was not the time when these things could be carried forward. But, but it was interesting, that such thing was being talked about and and I do hope that one day that will that will become a reality. But because you know, again, let me say that we found heavy water reactors to be to be the best fit to meet India's requirements. But if you ask me today, what is the best reactor which will address this question of climate change in the world? In the best possible way, my answer is use of thorium in heavy water reactors and and deploy that in in the emerging economy countries. The point is the growth of energy, energy consumption is not going to grow in the so called energy or the high income countries or industrially advanced countries they have reached more or less saturated per capita electricity consumption. And you know, their human development index is not going to be altered by any change, increase or decrease of per capita electricity. They will of course, require a nuclear energy depending on their policies, but that is to replace the retiring energy plants to replace it. No, but the net energy input into the country is unlikely to grow in, in the industrially advanced countries, whereas in emerging economic countries as the economy grows, there will be need for more energy and, and that is where there will be a huge demand for for nuclear energy particularly in light of the climate change threat. I also done some calculations and for example, you know, this discourse which is changing now, from the renewable energy to clean energy, it's a very important discourse, because if you look at this continuously increasing energy needs, then renewable energy is not going to be sufficient to address those needs. And so, now, once we agree that this emerging economy countries require nuclear energy, now, the question is what are the barriers to deployment of nuclear energy in these countries and the barriers are all these you know, ability to do that in a developing economy.

And also there is the inability to do so, in a proliferation resistant manner. Now, if you use heavy water reactor, and if you use thorium based fuel in heavy water reactor, you actually realize a lot of economy as I said earlier, you realize proliferation resistance, which is better than any other system that one can think of, and, and you can actually address the climate change threat globally, in perhaps the best manner. So, I know, conditions today are, are not quite ripe to do this. But I hope this will happen one of these days.

Dr. Chris Keefer  27:13  

Well tell me a little bit more about this, because I'm fascinated by this idea that India's pressurized heavy water reactor fleet are, are some of the most economical to build. And I know, there's been ambitions to to grow nuclear capacity in India, basically, by 100 fold. I think currently, you're sitting around six or seven gigawatts, and there's plans to get up to 400 500 gigawatts of capacity, what's what's been holding things back, if indeed, the unit price per megawatt hour can be so low because of some of the advantages you mentioned.

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  27:40  

Let's understand those reasons. As I said earlier, initially, it was a major technology development exercise for us. And that, of course, took much longer time because we had to do that, too, in an environment of embargo at that time. So it took a long time, once we mastered the technology, and our reactors have started performing, performing extremely well, in fact, I must also inform you that several of our heavy water reactors have, for example, longer than sort of uninterrupted run longer than a year. These reactors have done it maybe 30 or 40 times and the longest operation in fact, at some stage, one of our reactor made the record for the globally longest, uninterrupted run, I think 962 days. So these reactors are performing extremely well. But we couldn't scale it up very fast, because at that time, there was shortage of uranium. Now, consequent to civil nuclear cooperation, opening up we have access to Uranium. And so, now, Government of India has approved construction of 10 700 megawatt PAH ws in fleet mode in the sense you order all the components simultaneously, and start work at all sites simultaneously. And so that brings in an acceleration. So that process has started about two to three years ago. And I think it will create momentum to deployment setting up of capacity through international cooperation, you know, we talked about light water reactors, that also is expected to add to this momentum and for example, the Russian we are there are actually two reactors operating in four reactors are under under construction. I do hope that we will make good progress with the AP 1000 systems of us origin. And similarly EPRs of French origin. And similarly, we'll we'll move forward. There were some difficulties initially in the context of the liability regime and the civil nuclear insurance and things like that. I hope those are behind us now. And, but what I agree with you, what we need is a very rapid deployment. But as I said earlier, we need very rapid deployment at minimum cost. And so, importing reactors while we will implement this, whatever has been already decided in terms of the reactors to be set up with foreign collaboration, but the emphasis should be on domestic building of reactors, which will happen at a much lower cost, and we should build momentum, and I hope that will happen now. I must also inform you that I have, I have also looked at Indian calculations, and the kind of energy that will require to reach a Human Development Index comparable to the best in the world. We require something like 28,000 terawatt hours per year, total energy in the country. And the total renewable energy potential that we have in the country is around around 6000 terawatt hours. So you add around two and a half 1000 terawatt hours available through additional biomass that we might have. So but even if you add that, you will find that there is a huge deficit compared to what India's requirements are and what the renewable energy including the newfound biomass potential, can cater to. And so nuclear capacity has become absolutely vital for India's development. And, and so it's absolutely important that nuclear power capacity in the country must go very rapidly.

Dr. Chris Keefer  32:30  

I echo all the time, the IPCC consensus, you know, in their in their principal Decarbonization pathways, which even in their more sort of Degrowth, models still call for a significant increase in nuclear energy, but in their more realistic models, particularly models for countries that are, I think, on that sort of S curve of energy use, moving into being middle income, that, you know, we need to see increases of, you know, five, five or six times percent, sorry, five or six times that of 2010 levels. And that really means that countries that, that have that tier one nuclear capacity have had a lot of building to do, because there's a lot of countries in the world that that don't have that capacity. You know, so that's, that's just, that's just the, you know, the climate science consensus.

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  33:10  

Yeah, so Exactly. So that is that is where, of course, I'm proposing. I'm, I am now a retired person. But I think it's as I said, it's important that the possibility of the thorium field heavy water reactors, getting deployment deployed on the large scale in the emerging economy countries is something which should be a global global movement and of course, the fuel supply because you know, that will require Halo higher say uranium. And so, there are groups, which have worked that out develop this feel particularly this company CCT II, which I'm mentoring and they have developed a fuel O'Neill fuel, which is highest say, low enriched uranium in thorium and that in heavy water reactors can give very high burn up comparable with Light Water Reactors. It is very strongly proliferation resistant. As I said, these reactors built in middle income countries would be available to the world at a much lower cost and the uranium the fuel, hello, thorium fuel can be supplied by country like United States or some other advanced countries like that. And if you do that I think that's a that's a very powerful concept for addressing the climate change world. So, this company CCT along with O'Neill, fuel is trying to propagate that, and I hope it carries traction.

Dr. Chris Keefer  35:19  

And again, the pressure is heavy water reactor seems to be of such relevance because you don't need to have heavy forging capacity within country I mean, in terms of a country taking on a nuclear program and and really digitizing it and building its own reactor fleet. Is that why you're you're such a fan of that technology? Or can you flesh that out a little bit more, so we can understand why you think there's such a role in these in these developing countries or countries that are just, you know, starting to explore nuclear energy? How would you make that pitch to say Ghana, for instance, or you know, a country that's wanting to enter into this, this source of energy?

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  35:53  

Well, it's like this, it is, it is individual countries choice. For example, emerging economy countries, they are in different stages of development, as far as nuclear technology are concerned, most of them are in very early stages. So they can get into the traditional vendor by relationship, which actually I don't advocate really, but in which case, they can get these reactors at competitive costs, they can get the fuel cycle at competitive costs, and they can pursue the the traditional way of nuclear capacity addition, a country can also decide to get on the development path. And if they want to develop these reactors, the infrastructure that exists in the middle income countries and all, I think building and heavy water reactor is easier compared to building a, you know, a light water reactor, which involves very heavy precision engineering, large forgings, and things of that kind. But, you know, there are plenty of choices available for for those countries. And I think it does, I think it meets interests of both the vendor countries as well as the developing countries, which may want to develop things on their own in a self reliant way. And the end, the fuel cycle is the key. And thorium offers that assurance in the field cycle, while it gives a lot of other advantages in terms of high burnout, shrinking of spent fuel inventory, and so on and so forth. So, I think it, I am not propagating a particular model of deployment, say, for example, India has chosen its own model. And I think we are on the right path. And we will continue to do that it is for other countries to choose. But they, if you go by the traditional global pattern, which has been pursued so far, we can make, because, you know, important thing is also to make rapid progress. It's not important that just capacity should increase, it's also important how fast that capacity grows, in the third world countries to combat climate change. And, and that is where this helps, in my view.

Dr. Chris Keefer  38:34  

So something that's so fundamental to picking up pace beyond the technology is is the human resources. And fundamentally, you know, the education system and the interest of young people. In entering entering this field, of course, the field needs to be vibrant to attract those young people. But in terms of exploring the kind of in country reality in India, what are attitudes like amongst amongst young people I know that you're involved in beyond your work within the nuclear field, you're quite passionate about higher education. What are you seeing in terms of people's interest in entering this field as seen as something that's desirable for youth to get into?

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  39:11  

Well, yes, see the education in any form always contributes always is beneficial. Now, regardless of how the education system has been defined, or designed, now, I think the the education movement in India in pre independence era was not really designed to develop human resources in the fullest sense, but was more to create a supportive role to people to play supportive role for the for the rulers of that time, the Britishers now, so they wanted to essentially produce Clark's and some middle Lord Are people but at the same time, that said a lot of people and many revolutionaries who have contributed to India's independence have come out through the same education system, the number proportionately may be small. But so, what I'm saying is education always is beneficial, that is point number one. Now, look at India situation today, as I said, we must do capacity building of people in a country like India, to be able to do the competitive technology globally competitive technology, and the education system, particularly higher education system in the country must be tailored to achieve that objective. Now, there is another side of this

logic, and that is, you know, globally the way things are happening now, the disparities are growing, all countries, disparities are growing be the economy is growing. But the, the gap between the rich and poor is also growing. And this is particularly Stark in in poorer countries, including India, for example. So, there's another challenge or another objective before education is to do capacity building of people who are at the, at the lower strata of the socio economic parameter. So, people in rural areas, poor people in urban areas, and how to deliver education to them, I come back to what I we said in the beginning how to deliver education to them, which enhances their capability and makes them brings them closer to the people who are more privileged. But at the same time, this technology doesn't become exploited to see any technology, you call it textiles, which was the issue in Mahatma Gandhi's time, or you call it whatever happened in the industrial revolution, or what is happening now in knowledge revolution. See the technology, there is always a fear that this technology could be very, very exploitative, in different ways. Now, but at the same time, as I said earlier, it's not technology, which is bad, it is the human mind, which is the problem and solved through education through good education, we must train human mind, which leverages the most competitive technology, globally competitive technology, but in a manner, which is not exploitative of anybody benefits to everybody, but exploitation of none. And that is the way it should move. So Indian Education objective, according to me, are twofold. One, to become technologically competent, with the best of capability that exists in the world. And number two, to become the best human being compared not consistent with the traditional Indian philosophy of what we call Vasudeva quotemykaam. You know, the whole world is one family. And so you can't do while you make your progress, you can't do harm to others in the family. And that, you know, to develop human mind to develop human beings with that kind of mindset is another important challenge before the education program. And it is in that logic, that towards the end of my career in atomic energy, I realized that we need to do a lot in our education system. So I engaged with IITs, I engaged the way I created a university in in Department of atomic energy itself Homi Bhabha National Institute, we created a center for basic sciences in Mumbai University, which is by the way, more than one and a half century old. And when we created new institutions that at nicer Vishakhapatnam a nursery at burnisher. My mistake, so and I think that is that is extremely important. And we have a lot of ground to cover on education sphere, in the context which I which I said

Dr. Chris Keefer  44:50  

let's close this off. I wanted to try to get a sense of what your what your level of hope is. You know, humanity is facing a lot of grave challenges. You mentioned climate change. We're also you know, on the verge, I think of a pretty dire energy crisis. And it's going to ripple out through food systems and other areas. What's What are some of your thoughts? Going forward looking looking at the future? Do you think of yourself as a hopeful, optimistic person at this stage of your life or what?

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  45:17  

Let me let me be philosophical at this point. Humans are the most evolved species among the animal kingdom. But at the same time, the fact still remains that humans are a part of animal kingdom. Now, there are some animal instincts, inherent animal instincts, and as a part of evolution, so we all have that animal instinct in us. And it's one can also argue that that has been a contributor to progress in some sense. But at the same time, human beings are quite different in the sense, their thinking ability is of a much different order, compared to other animals or other species in the animal kingdom. And so, they have developed a so called human culture, how to live as human beings and they have evolved in new philosophy. So, there are animal instincts, and there are human instincts. And in human beings, all of us we have both of them. I think, what Mahatma Gandhi said is that the human instinct in US should prevail over animal instincts in us. Sometimes, I wonder, looking at things what are happening globally, whether it is the animal instincts that is tending to prevail, and I think this is a this is a constant battle, both at the level of individuals at the level of societies and at the level of international community. And of course, history has shown that wherever there has been a turmoil, because of animal instinct trying to prevail, the humanity has come together and have acted in a more humane way. So I do hope that the human instinct in us will ultimately prevail. Now, what is the dynamics that will take place in this process will decide how much of turmoil the world will go through? So one can depending on your mindset, be optimistic about it, or one can be pessimistic about about it and different people logically will have different conclusions on this aspect. I would want to be optimistic. And I would expect and hope that the human instinct will prevail. At the same time the business as usual, obviously, is not the solution, because I think every time you create a new order, well, you do get some progress, some achieve, but the challenges become bigger, for example, climate change is a challenge which was unthought of earlier. Now, if humanity has to survive, we have to factor that in. So as I said, I would like to be optimistic and hope that the human instinct would would prevail. The challenge is how soon that will happen. I would like to be I'm not saying there is no logic to this, but I would like to be optimistic.

Dr. Chris Keefer  48:45  

That's I think that's a good way to and a healthy way to live your life. Okay, Dr. Carr, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to come on on Decouple and you're in a less illustrious guest to add to our catalogue. Thank you for making the time.

Dr. Anil Kakodkar  48:58  

Thank you.

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